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Antler genetics - The Michigan Sportsman Forums

This is in response to another thread I saw about culling a buck because it had a defective rack.

You've all probably seen it on the hunting shows and videos.

Large ranches taking what they call a "management" buck because they don't want that buck breeding.

Is there any science behind this practice, can you really have future generations of bigger antlers by culling out bucks with inferior racks?

I've also heard antler traits are passed by the doe, is that true?

I have not read any factual studies that prove culling bucks to rid bad genetics in free ranging deer A lot of these culls are taken because they have a good grasp on thier herd sex ratio to habitat Hey when michigan get a 5/1 buck/doe ratio we can start shooting a few 5year old 6 pts

Quote: : This is in response to another thread I saw about culling a buck because it had a defective rack.

You've all probably seen it on the hunting shows and videos.

Large ranches taking what they call a "management" buck because they don't want that buck breeding.

Is there any science behind this practice, can you really have future generations of bigger antlers by culling out bucks with inferior racks?

I've also heard antler traits are passed by the doe, is that true? It's impossible to to manage a free ranging heard. It's impossibel to know if a buck is a "cull" buck until he's 3.5 99.9% of the time when a person shoots a "cull" buck in free ranging herd, it's done so because they wanted to shoot the buck.

They "cull" part is an excuse they use

Swoosh.. I am going to proove you wrong!

LOL!! Two years ago I shot a deer that was a 2.5 year old..

As a 1.5 yr old he had almost an identical rack as when I shot him grew maybe 4" Total.. Was a 4 or 5 point small rack..

I will post pictures..

There is no way this deer would have ever jumped from about 30" at 2.5 to 120" at 3.5.

We have never seen another deer like him the rest of that year, last year and so far this year.. So i believe there are deer that need to be culled..

Quote: : ... Is there any science behind this practice, can you really have future generations of bigger antlers by culling out bucks with inferior racks?

I've also heard antler traits are passed by the doe, is that true?

Yes there is science behind it.

Any phenotype (physical appearance) has a related genotype (genetic foundation).

It is not an exact science because physical characteristics are influenced by other factors than genetics.

In the case of antler size these factors include nutrition and climate.

Rack size in deer is influenced by a combination genes and not just one specific gene.

Doe supply half of the genes. Managing deer for the development of trophy racks however is better suited to those managing very large sections of land. <----<<<

Quote: : Swoosh..

I am going to proove you wrong!

LOL!! Two years ago I shot a deer that was a 2.5 year old..

As a 1.5 yr old he had almost an identical rack as when I shot him grew maybe 4" Total.. Was a 4 or 5 point small rack..

I will post pictures..

There is no way this deer would have ever jumped from about 30" at 2.5 to 120" at 3.5.

We have never seen another deer like him the rest of that year, last year and so far this year.. So i believe there are deer that need to be culled..

Not trying to start a war but if you killed him at 2 1/2 I would say it would be hard to tell what he would have been at maturity.

Most small bucks spikes,3,4 and so on get a bad rap for being some how geneticly inferior, when in fact it may be from poor nutrion, born late, social stress and so on.

I have a deer on film this year that got hit by a car in the winter and he only grew buttons, you can even call him a spike and he is 2 1/2 years old.

Any time a deer is under sever stress for any of the above reasons it will show up in his rack.

I hear this alot from people when I'm taking questions at co-op meetings(we have bad gentics so we kill every spike we see) I simply tell them to catch them put ear tags in their ears and call me in 5 years if any of them are still spikes, you get the farm.

Lets face it genetic are the last think we need to worry about in Michigan.

Quote: : Swoosh..

I am going to proove you wrong!

LOL!! Two years ago I shot a deer that was a 2.5 year old..

As a 1.5 yr old he had almost an identical rack as when I shot him grew maybe 4" Total.. Was a 4 or 5 point small rack..

I will post pictures..

There is no way this deer would have ever jumped from about 30" at 2.5 to 120" at 3.5.

We have never seen another deer like him the rest of that year, last year and so far this year.. So i believe there are deer that need to be culled..

Hey I am just stating what Dr.

Deer told me Yes there are execptions to every rule, but in General we truly do not know until 3.5 and older.

Once the body is mature, they put there energy into antlers How many times when someone shoots a deer in the wild they state it's a "cull" buck, it really is?

Quote: : Hey I am just stating what Dr.

Deer told me Yes there are execptions to every rule, but in General we truly do not know until 3.5 and older.

Once the body is mature, they put there energy into antlers How many times when someone shoots a deer in the wild they state it's a "cull" buck, it really is?

Probably not many times!! I just cant see a 90" swing and that deer was extremely healthy..

Was probably a buck 80 dressed out..

He was a hog of a deer!

Only social stress could have been why did my momma give me these little *** horns..

He was a mean deer too..

Would come into the plot and run everything off everytime..

I had brought my brother who was 14 at the time to kill him and we hunted hard for 3 days and did not get him and then the day after he left he walked right into the same plot and I shot him at 18 yards..

Not before he pushed 5 other deer including a year and a half old that was bigger than him in rack size but dwarfed by him in body.. In some instances Calhoun i believe we could both be right and I very much agree that a spike will not stay a spike as well! Maybe I am just not a big fan of goofy racks I need to post a pic of that deer!!

LOL!

Quote: : You've all probably seen it on the hunting shows and videos.

Large ranches taking what they call a "management" buck because they don't want that buck breeding.

Gunfun, I hope the following answers your question.

This is from a professional deer manager. "In a trophy program, culling is only used 1) once the buck age structure has reached the intended goal;

And 2) only used to remove bucks that have reached the age necessary to display much of their potential (4 1/2+) and appear not to be able to produce what the program is looking for.

Cull bucks are removed not for genetic reasons but simply to remove a mouth from the environment--a mouth that will never be what the program is trying to produce." Bryan Kinkel, BSK Consulting

Thanks Bob! That answers it exactly.

Quote: : Archer Yes there is science behind it.

Any phenotype (physical appearance) has a related genotype (genetic foundation).

It is not an exact science because physical characteristics are influenced by other factors than genetics.

In the case of antler size these factors include nutrition and climate.

Rack size in deer is influenced by a combination genes and not just one specific gene.

Doe supply half of the genes. Managing deer for the development of trophy racks however is better suited to those managing very large sections of land. <----<<<

Joe, just to support your last statement, here is a good article I just posted on another thread.

Http://www.qdma.com/articles/details.asp?id=84 I agree with everything else you say.

Nutrition is a far more important factor in most herds than genetics.

The herd in the U.P.

Is probably not geneticaly distinct from the SLP herd.

But they are under much more stress and restrictive diets and therefore do not get as big. Just think about it from an animal husbandry standpoint too.

You can grow a big dog, cow, pig, or horse.

But you don't accomplish it by removing the smaller ones and letting the rest freely breed.

You do it by selecting big ones from each sex, making sure they and only they breed with each other.

You then select the biggest ones from that breeding cycle, and breed them back to other big animals, exactly contolling who breeds whom.

And so forth for several generations. In husbandry, you don't select AGAINST traits, you select FOR positive traits or FOR the lack of negative traits.

And you never let the animals freely breed with each other.

Are there any studies about the effect of the doe on antlers?

I know it's easy to say that a doe passes on 50% of the antler genes, but has that been proven?

Are they an X-chromosome trait, or something that is more greatly influenced by the Y? We had a run of horrible bucks-- gnarly, nasty little spikes and 4's...

(wexford county)...

Suddenly, we had a new large doe show up, and the old doe that ran the bait piles disappeared.

The bucks seemed to improve-- but we can't really tell why on our open, 200 acres.

Here is what I/we were told at the QDMA national convention this year Bob S.

Was there and I remember hearing what BSK was saying.

This was not from a biologist paid by the QDMA.

By the way, all speakers at this convention were there on their own dime!

They told us that if you "cull" a buck at 1.5 years that you will be right 2.5 % of the time, as opposed to letting him live to maturity of 5-6 years of age.

If you culled him at 2.5 because you thought he was inferior, you would be right 10% of the time when you are comparing him to what his ultimate potential would be. I don't know about you guys, but I would rather let him go until he gets a few years under his belt and then decide what his potential may be.

Quote: : Quote: : We had a run of horrible bucks-- gnarly, nasty little spikes and 4's...

(wexford county)...

Suddenly, we had a new large doe show up, and the old doe that ran the bait piles disappeared.

The bucks seemed to improve-- but we can't really tell why on our open, 200 acres.

KR4x6, I would be interested to know how you define "suddenly". It would be interesting to know if we could manipulate antler genetics by determining which doe controls the bait pile.

You may have stumbled on to something here.

Perhaps a grad student at MSU would consider doing a masters thesis on the topic. Big T

Discussion Title: Antler genetics
Title Keywords: Antler  genetics  Michigan  Sportsman  Forums 



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