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Are plasma tv's dimmer than lcd tv's? - AVS Forum
When I look at plasma and lcd tv's at Best Buy, it always seems that the plasma tv's are dimmer than the lcd tv's.
Is that because they are set differently, or are plasma tv's naturally dimmer?
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Quote: : When I look at plasma and lcd tv's at Best Buy, it always seems that the plasma tv's are dimmer than the lcd tv's.
Is that because they are set differently, or are plasma tv's naturally dimmer?
Depends on settings.
The LCD has the ability to get brighter yes.
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LCDs typically have the ability to get brighter.
Best Buy also jacks up the settings..
People see bright and saturated colors and they think good picture, unknowing that if they set it up like that in their home, they would go blind
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Hmmm...That's great info to know on the store settings.
I'll definately have to go back and check this out.
I just got back from BB and CC with the wife and wanted her to look at the 58" Pan I'd like to get in the next few months.
She doesn't know anything about Plasma or LCD and could care less.
In every case in size ranging from 42-60" she picked an LCD regardless of brand.
She said the picture quality looked brighter ( we were watching a college football game).
I was a little taken back too because I had to agree that the LCDs did appear to have a better and significantly brighter picture.
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And then there is the ambient lighting.
One's home isn't going to be nearly as bright as a retail showroom.
In fact, some or all of one's TV viewing will probably be in the dark.
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What appears to be a bright TV in a retail store will appear to be eye searing at home.
LCDs typically catch people's attention because in the retail setting bright, dynamic, etc...
Stuff that look garish at home looks good in that ambient lighting.
Unless you have the display in a very bright room plasma will be plenty bright.
I'm messing with a 4671 Samsung LCD right now and my biggest challenge is toning it down for evening viewing.
I end up with the backlight on 2 out of 10, and still have to engage one of the power saving modes or it hurts my eyes.
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Interesting responses.
So how does a CRT compare with plasma and LCD in terms of brightness?
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CRTs are usually even dimmer.
The thing is, an LCD's brightness is a double edged sword.
It gives you very vibrant colors but usually hurts black levels.
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I'm surprised that this is the only post I could find on this subject, and a short one at that.
Since the post was already started, I thought I would ressurect the thread.
Ok - so I have been reading up on TV's lately, but only now headed over to the big box store (BB) to take a look.
I own a 5 year old Sony rp lcd, but am looking for something to hang on the wall due to new room rearrangement and want something bigger.
After reading many threads here, I went to BB to check out the 58" Panny 800u.
All of the Plasma's looked unwatchable due to the dimness.
I truly hope that this is not the case in the home (as mentioned earlier in this thread - looking for others comparisons).
I have to admit that my lcd has treated me well, minus the lack of black levels.
Also - could it be just their so called calibration, but I really thought that the 800u they had on display looked as if they did not have the greatest black levels either despite the hype.
They actually had 2 on display next to each other, one was ISF calibrated, but both had the same light black levels.
Maybe I'm expecting too much?
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Quote: : I'm surprised that this is the only post I could find on this subject, and a short one at that.
Since the post was already started, I thought I would ressurect the thread.
Ok - so I have been reading up on TV's lately, but only now headed over to the big box store (BB) to take a look.
I own a 5 year old Sony rp lcd, but am looking for something to hang on the wall due to new room rearrangement and want something bigger.
After reading many threads here, I went to BB to check out the 58" Panny 800u.
All of the Plasma's looked unwatchable due to the dimness.
I truly hope that this is not the case in the home (as mentioned earlier in this thread - looking for others comparisons).
I have to admit that my lcd has treated me well, minus the lack of black levels.
Also - could it be just their so called calibration, but I really thought that the 800u they had on display looked as if they did not have the greatest black levels either despite the hype.
They actually had 2 on display next to each other, one was ISF calibrated, but both had the same light black levels.
Maybe I'm expecting too much?
#1 Rule
DO NOT GO BY WHAT YOU SEE IN BB/CC!!!
Ability to be jacked up to torch mode brightness is not an important trait of a display.
Of course Plasma will look a little DIM next to a SOny or Sammy LCD with the backlight on high, contrast up super high, and brightness up too high.
This has nothing to do with Picture quality.
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Quote: : LCDs typically have the ability to get brighter.
Best Buy also jacks up the settings..
People see bright and saturated colors and they think good picture, unknowing that if they set it up like that in their home, they would go blind This is completely untrue, and how misconceptions spread.
When you purchase a TV, you have the option of choosing "home", or "store mode".
If you choose "store mode", then the set will always revert to dynamic if the settings are ever changed.
All TV's are set to dynamic drom the manufacturer.
Not a single corporate B&M tampers with the settings, they are opened, and displayed.
This is how the manufacturers require their panels be displayed.
To the OP, yes LCD's are much brighter.
In dynamic mode LCD's are capable of going up to 80fl, and brighter, while most plasmas peak around 60fl.
Just for reference, the standard is 35-40fl, with 45 being ideal for daytime viewing with substantial ambient light.
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Quote: : #1 Rule
DO NOT GO BY WHAT YOU SEE IN BB/CC!!!
Ability to be jacked up to torch mode brightness is not an important trait of a display.
Of course Plasma will look a little DIM next to a SOny or Sammy LCD with the backlight on high, contrast up super high, and brightness up too high.
This has nothing to do with Picture quality.
I guess I am not questioning the picture "quality", rather the dimness.
I understand that the BB's & CC's of the worlds have higher than optimal lighting compared to a family room in the home, but it is tough to visualize this dim TV being much better.
Prior to my visit to the store I was basing my opinions on what I have read in the Plasma Threads on this forum, but I didn't realize how dim they really are.
Quote: : This is completely untrue, and how misconceptions spread.
When you purchase a TV, you have the option of choosing "home", or "store mode".
If you choose "store mode", then the set will always revert to dynamic if the settings are ever changed.
All TV's are set to dynamic drom the manufacturer.
Not a single corporate B&M tampers with the settings, they are opened, and displayed.
This is how the manufacturers require their panels be displayed.
To the OP, yes LCD's are much brighter.
In dynamic mode LCD's are capable of going up to 80fl, and brighter, while most plasmas peak around 60fl.
Just for reference, the standard is 35-40fl, with 45 being ideal for daytime viewing with substantial ambient light.
Good to know regarding the fl levels.
Now to be completely clueless, what does fl mean and what is the significance?
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to go blind looking into the light, but it appeared as all of the Plasmas were really struggling to stay on.
I want to be convinced that it will look much better in my home, but after actually playing with each of the sets in the store, I'm not confident in what I want to purchase now...
(use it mostly for TV and Movies with about 4-5 hours of gaming per week).
You can tell I'm just relearning TV tech (5 years removed).
I have been too busy upgrading sound.
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Quote: : When I look at plasma and lcd tv's at Best Buy, it always seems that the plasma tv's are dimmer than the lcd tv's.
Is that because they are set differently, or are plasma tv's naturally dimmer?
Yes, Yes, Yes, LCD's are absolutey brighter than plasmas.
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Quote: : Yes, Yes, Yes, LCD's are absolutey brighter than plasmas.
You are responding to the original thread starter (note that was September '07)
I understand that LCD's are brighter, but I am looking for experiences and comparisons from those that have brought Plasmas home.
Is this dimness a disadvantage in the home environment, is the brightness of an LCD an advantage or overkill??
Are you left there wanting more brightness out of the Plasma after brining it home??
LCD's definately have the advantage in the store where there is lots of lighting.
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Quote: : Yes, Yes, Yes, LCD's are absolutey brighter than plasmas.
Definitive statements without context don't add anything to the discussion.
Here's what CNet had to say about the Vizio 42" plasma: "With Contrast set to the default of 50 in the middle of the range, I measured 117 footlamberts, which is brighter than most LCD panels."
A more helpful way of answering the question might go like this.
Most LCDs are capable of putting out more light that most plasmas.
However, most sets, both LCD and plasma, are capable of being brighter than necessary for a typical home environment.
I highly recommend going to look at sets in a better store environment.
A "Magnolia" section at Best Buy, or a high end AV store like Tweeter or The Big Screen Store, somewhere that doesn't have 50' ceilings and dozens of flourescent lights.
You will see that in a normal sized room with normal, home-like lighting, plasmas are plenty bright.
ndskurfer, what is the room you'll be putting the TV in like?
Windows, lighting, etc?
jeff
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Quote: :
ndskurfer, what is the room you'll be putting the TV in like?
Windows, lighting, etc?
jeff Thanks Jeff -
We do have a smaller shop in town that I will have to stop by yet this week.
Hopefully they have a selection to compare..
My room is 20 x 16.
We have 1 daylight window (3 panes) facing the east - no direct sunlight coming in through this window in the afternoon which is when we are most likely to be watching tv.
We just bought the home, so I am in the process of getting heavy window treatments when necessary.
I do have a dimmer on the ceiling light, which we have really taken advantage of even with the older rear projection tv we currently have.
I'm guessing that this sounds like an ideal environment for a Plasma - but I think I need to actually see it in a similar environment.
Jeff - would you say that this dimness is actually preferred over brightness in a light controlled environment??
Black levels are very important to me, but I also don't want to consider it as a "trade-off".
Thanks,
Scott
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I think your assessment is correct, sounds like your room is a great environment for plasma.
Hopefully your trip to the other store will give you some reassurance that a plasma can be bright enough for your home.
FWIW, I have a Panasonic 50PX77U - a 2007 model 720p plasma, with an LCD-like matte finish screen.
My room is about 14x20, with recessed lights in the ceiling on a dimmer and a window and glass double doors on the wall opposite the TV.
The TV is plenty bright, even in the daytime or at night with the lights all the way on.
It's borderline too bright at night with the lights out, the whole room gets illuminated by it.
My settings are close to those provided in the CNet review, which they say are ideal for a dark environment.
The PQ is awesome.
I believe the newer models from Panasonic are even brighter.
jeff
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Not sure this will be helpfull or not but when you walk into a retail environment with multiple displays and you want to compare display brightness remember these points:
1 - Our eyes/brain integrate light both temporally and spacially: For a given size screen, a full white screen will look much brighter than a small white dot.
2 - In LCD displays, the light output per pixel remains constant regardless of the number or level or pixels that are 'on'.
3 - In plasma displays, as the number and/or level of pixels that are 'on' increases, the light output per pixel drops substantially.
This brightness inversion is so substantial some plasma displays output almost 10 times less output on a full white screen than on a small white dot.
Now, when comparing LCD to plasma side by side you will see a dramatic difference (due to the three points mentioned above).
However, when you get the plasma in your home, you are only left with points 1 and 3 which tend to balance each other.
And when you get an LCD in your home, you are only left with points 1 and 2 which tend to force you to reduce the brightness/backlight substantially.
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Went to the 2 "high-end" stores in town today - not impressed with selection.
Unfortunately, Best Buy had higher end models than what they carried.
They are "high-end" since they can order in what you want.
One shop had 10 lcds and 1 plasma (all LG).
I stopped back at Best Buy and spent more time looking at the Pioneer this time.
The Panasonic again did not appear to have very good black levels again (even compared to the LCDs near by), plus was dim.
The Pioneer in comparison blew it away.
Yes it was dim, but I didn't care as it had much better color.
Even last years close-out Pioneer blew away this years Panasonic.
I know that these are store settings, but pretty impressive none-the-less.
I'm definately going to get a Plasma - but I think I better wait till I find a deal on a 60" Pioneer.
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Great thoughts! It's nice to see objective research being done.
Try one of the several forum sponsers on the bottom of this page for great prices on plasmas, even the 60" Kuros.
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Nd, think of fl (footlamberts) as inches.
Fl are the description for luminance measurments.
So, the higher the fl (inches), the brighter the panel.A Tv is supposed to look natural, which is why peak luminance levels post calibration are compared to candelas, which is the most natural light source.
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I was in a BB last week.
Looking at the sets all in neat rows on the wall, it occurred to me that the LCD sets had nice, bright whites, and the plasmas looked positively dim by comparison.
Also on allot of the LCD's there was some differences that you could note with the blacks especially on a all black screen.
Once you get one of them home and you no longer have the other sets sitting side by side to compare it with, does it matter anymore?
Not really.
Also the whole argument about BB and CC having to much light so the LCDs look better, also IMO is bunk.
I have been in several BB's and CC's over the last 2 months in 3 different states and have noticed that in the viewing area there are no overhead lights.
I don't want to harp on the plasma guys favorite complaint, but how dark does it have to be to satisfy you guys?
Will I need a flashlight once I get into the store just to find the area where the sets are?
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Quote: : I was in a BB last week.
Looking at the sets all in neat rows on the wall, it occurred to me that the LCD sets had nice, bright whites, and the plasmas looked positively dim by comparison.
Also on allot of the LCD's there was some differences that you could note with the blacks especially on a all black screen.
Once you get one of them home and you no longer have the other sets sitting side by side to compare it with, does it matter anymore?
Not really.
Also the whole argument about BB and CC having to much light so the LCDs look better, also IMO is bunk.
I have been in several BB's and CC's over the last 2 months in 3 different states and have noticed that in the viewing area there are no overhead lights.
I don't want to harp on the plasma guys favorite complaint, but how dark does it have to be to satisfy you guys?
Will I need a flashlight once I get into the store just to find the area where the sets are?
When you get it home, yes, it does make a difference.
Bad blacks are very easy to see in a dark room.
If you are looking at higher-end LCDs it's not so much of an issue but it certainly is on the entry level ones.
And if you don't ever watch TV in a dark movie-type environment it also won't matter much.
But to most people, it will.
Those "nice, bright whites" you see in the store are way too bright to view at home without seriously straining your eyes.
It's only when you dim the TVs down to watchable levels in normal lighting conditions that you can really see a good comparison.
If you believe an overly bright TV will really look better in your home, well that's your opinion but it doesn't make the overwhelming amount of reviews that state otherwise "bunk".
It has been shown many times that plasmas are more than bright enough to meet professional calibration standards.
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Quote: : When you get it home, yes, it does make a difference.
Bad blacks are very easy to see in a dark room.
If you are looking at higher-end LCDs it's not so much of an issue but it certainly is on the entry level ones.
And if you don't ever watch TV in a dark movie-type environment it also won't matter much.
But to most people, it will.
Those "nice, bright whites" you see in the store are way too bright to view at home without seriously straining your eyes.
It's only when you dim the TVs down to watchable levels in normal lighting conditions that you can really see a good comparison.
If you believe an overly bright TV will really look better in your home, well that's your opinion but it doesn't make the overwhelming amount of reviews that state otherwise "bunk".
It has been shown many times that plasmas are more than bright enough to meet professional calibration standards.
I am in a mood this morning so here goes.
Bad blacks?
So you take it home, turn off all the lights and turn on the set and look at a blank screen?
Is that your test?
Bright whites.
Ever catch the sunlight off of a bright white object outside in real life?
Probably a bit to bright I think, we should call a professional to turn down the brightness of the sun.
After all we can't have real life playing a part in what we see and watch.
Normal lighting conditions?
What is normal exactly?
Your place is normal and mine isn't?
Who determines that?
Reviews are like opinions, for the most part they are crap.
I know that allot of people here spend to much time on the web and by their post count may be the majority of their time here, but just going to a review site for recomendations is not a way to find a good set.
I think I will be one of the pod people and go with what the reviews say.
Professonal calibration standards.
Hey, did you hear?
I started a organization last week that does calibration, now whatever I say and do should not be questioned and if someone goes against my opinion, they are automatically wrong!
No offense to the "professionals" out there but I have yet to see a set calibrated to my liking.
A set of standards is still just something that someone else likes, I really don't.
OK I should not do this before I have coffee in the morning, I appologize.
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Again, you are entitled to your opinion.
Everybody's preferences certainly are not the same.
You are the one calling other opinions bunk.
I'm just pointing out that plasmas do meet professional standards as to what is considered an ideal picture.
If you don't like those standards, fine, but that doesn't disqualify that fact.
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Quote: : Again, you are entitled to your opinion.
Everybody's preferences certainly are not the same.
You are the one calling other opinions bunk.
I'm just pointing out that plasmas do meet professional standards as to what is considered an ideal picture.
If you don't like those standards, fine, but that doesn't disqualify that fact.
I do not recall using the word "bunk".
I am just pointing out Professional Calibaration Standards are as you say a standardized set of opinions.
Reviews are really just the opinion of the reviewer, and should not be relied upon to buy a set, but to often people will buy based on them and not their own eyes.
I have seen calibrated displays of many types and IMO none is of sufficent brightness to give a good picture that is true to life (BTW this is my major complaint against calibration).
Is this my own eyes?
Yes. Yours may be different.
As to eyestrain, I don't wear sunglasses 24/7 because of bright lights.
Why would I run my set brightness at (IMO) lower level than real life?
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Wow. I agree, you ought to avoid posting until you've had your coffee.
Harsh much?
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Quote: : I do not recall using the word "bunk".
I am just pointing out Professional Calibaration Standards are as you say a standardized set of opinions.
Reviews are really just the opinion of the reviewer, and should not be relied upon to buy a set, but to often people will buy based on them and not their own eyes.
I have seen calibrated displays of many types and IMO none is of sufficent brightness to give a good picture that is true to life (BTW this is my major complaint against calibration).
Is this my own eyes?
Yes. Yours may be different.
As to eyestrain, I don't wear sunglasses 24/7 because of bright lights.
Why would I run my set brightness at (IMO) lower level than real life?
Calibration to some industry standard isn't supposed to make the TV look true to life, it's supposed to make that TV capable of being an accurate reference compared to other TVs/printers/etc calibrated to that standard.
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TNG,
your words:
Quote: : Also the whole argument about BB and CC having to much light so the LCDs look better, also IMO is bunk.
Btw: i too like bright displays and have seen plasmas which don't get bright enough for me.
My current 9G get brighter then i need and i do watch during the day with open blinds on 2 big french doors opening to the patio.
The 9G is plenty bright.
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Quote: : I was in a BB last week.
Looking at the sets all in neat rows on the wall, it occurred to me that the LCD sets had nice, bright whites, and the plasmas looked positively dim by comparison.
Also on allot of the LCD's there was some differences that you could note with the blacks especially on a all black screen.
Once you get one of them home and you no longer have the other sets sitting side by side to compare it with, does it matter anymore?
Not really.
Also the whole argument about BB and CC having to much light so the LCDs look better, also IMO is bunk.
I have been in several BB's and CC's over the last 2 months in 3 different states and have noticed that in the viewing area there are no overhead lights.
I don't want to harp on the plasma guys favorite complaint, but how dark does it have to be to satisfy you guys?
Will I need a flashlight once I get into the store just to find the area where the sets are?
Quote: : I do not recall using the word "bunk".
I am just pointing out Professional Calibaration Standards are as you say a standardized set of opinions.
Reviews are really just the opinion of the reviewer, and should not be relied upon to buy a set, but to often people will buy based on them and not their own eyes.
I have seen calibrated displays of many types and IMO none is of sufficent brightness to give a good picture that is true to life (BTW this is my major complaint against calibration).
Is this my own eyes?
Yes. Yours may be different.
As to eyestrain, I don't wear sunglasses 24/7 because of bright lights.
Why would I run my set brightness at (IMO) lower level than real life?
D65 is not an opinion.
It is the standard in which film is produced.
When a set is properly calibrated, you are seeing the movie through the eyes of the director.
Believe it or not, some reveiws are actually backed up by factual data.
So, they are not formed opinions.
The beauty of this hobby is that there is a science behind it.
Last time I checked, this forum was called "Audio Video Science".
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